A short while ago the department decided to allow some students to meet with an invited speaker and to take him out to dinner (on the department’s dime!). I’m shy around people I don’t know very well (I know this makes me sound like a two year-old, but, alas, it is what it is) and I thought this would be a good situation for me to practice overcoming my (rather immature) shyness. So, I volunteered to be one of the students.
During the day it was all fine. The speaker was very interested in what everyone was doing, he asked good questions involving my thesis project, and offered advice on career paths. He did commit (what I considered to be minor) a few faux pas during the day and at dinner. I found these more amusing than anything else and Advisor came into the lab as I was recounting them to Roommate and Labmate.
“Then, at dinner he almost pushed poor Female Grad Student (FGS) off the seat. He pulled the old stretch and put the arm on the seat. Then, he kept scooting over until FGS gave him the hairy eye and asked if he needed to use the restroom,” I was telling them as Advisor came in.
“He did what?” Advisor asked.
“Oh Invited Speaker was a little… umm… handsy, I suppose,” I told him while Roommate and I sort of laughed. “He just didn’t seem to have any boundaries. You should have seen FGS when we dropped him off. He did the reel-’em-in-and-kiss-’em– on the cheek.” Labmate, Roommate, and I laughed. Advisor didn’t.
“That was inappropriate,” Advisor said, clearly a bit upset.
“I suppose he was. But he was just a harmless, handsy guy,” I replied.
I was a bit mystified that Advisor was upset. I mean, older men tended to do this. I, and other women my age, get called ‘sweetie’ and ‘honey.’ We get the patented awkward-arm-and-shoulder-rub. And, on occasion, we get the superior-who-is-a-bit-touchy-feely-but-not-in-a-threatening-sort-of-way. It’s always been this way from the time I was fifteen and a supermarket bag-girl who’d get hit on by the widowed 70 year-old men who’d shop on Saturdays.
“He should know better,” said Advisor. “It’s a shame that this experience has been marred for you all in this way.”
Then, it hit me. Of course Advisor would be upset. He would not be treated like this and, frankly, wouldn’t tolerate it. So, in his thought process why should I be treated like this? I have to admit that I felt (and still do) like a moron. Why is this sort of behavior ok? Why is it just an amusing anecdote to tell people? It’s sort of … I’m not sure of the correct word here (sad, pathetic, oblivious) that I never questioned it until now.
interesting that you found it harmless. But it is true, a male would never have been treated that way. An ancedote from our lab, Male Post-doc always want to hug me after we have a disagreement – he doesn’t hug male students after disagreements with them. Its not harassment, just a tad paternalistic.
You make a good point: it wouldn’t happen with men. That being said, I’ve kinda just gotten over it. (Plus, down South, everyone calls you honey.) A similar thing that has bothered me lately is not being heard when I talk in a group of men. And it’s not for lack of trying (or speaking too quietly). I’m either cut off or ignored, and when I’m in a group of superiors, that means that I just don’t talk. And my advisor wonders why…
OMG! I would have hated that. I’m not sure what I would have done, but I wouldn’t have though it endearing. I’m from the North though. Not just the north, actually, but the ultra polite and reserved Midwest.
It’s cool that you had a change of perspective that might be empowering. I hope you’re not in that kind of situation again.
It’s a point of shame for me as a man that you did not notice that his behaviour was inappropriate.
What I mean is that women have been indoctrinated into believing such behaviour is acceptable, even encouraged, for so long that you think it’s ‘normal’. And that is wrong.
(Hi. Nice doggie pic 🙂 )
I don’t see how being called “honey” is equivalent to being “reeled in” and kissed on the cheek. I will tolerate the first, but the second would result in a slap across the face. This guy is out to dinner with you in a professional capacity – you are not on a date! Even then physical contact is not something a woman should have to just accept whether she wants it or not. I agree with your PI that the speaker should know better.
Perhaps I, too, have shifted in my attitudes about this since I was younger. I think I have become less tolerant since I got married. But I’m also much more confident about drawing a very sharp line of appropriate physical contact and not allowing it to be crossed.
I agree that it is good that you are thinking about this now. Imagine if this was the treatment you received from a male colleague at a conference, or in the process of interviewing for a postdoc.
Under no circumstances do I find this acceptable. Words are one thing, but any kind of physical contact! Yuck!
I would have punched him in the face. (Not really, but I wouldn’t have allowed the touching/kissing).
Scientist Mother: I guess, that’s how I see it as well. It’s not really harassment, just paternalistic.
Southern Grad Girl: I think that’s why I didn’t think anything of it… it’s just something that people do. However, I’m beginning to think that in this particular setting it’s a tad inappropriate. Plus, I think this behavior may breed the ignoring, etc. that you’re seeing.
EGF: It’s funny that you commented after Southern Grad Girl. It really does depend on where you grow up. For instance in HomeTown it’s not unusual for some older gentleman to give you a hug in parting. It’s something that took my Mom (who is also from the midwest) a lot of time to become accustomed to it.
Black Knight: I agree with you about the fact that women have been indoctrinated and that’s just wrong. I’m not quite sure how to overcome that, though.
Acme Girl: Until now, I considered it one-in-the-same. Now, I think differently. It’s just been one of those things. I’ve been used to the paternalistic/patronizing tone of older men. It never occurred to me that this was inappropriate until Advisor said something. I think from now on that sort of thing will result in a sharply worded statement.
Candid Engineer: I was somewhat surprised that FGS didn’t deck him. She’s much more outspoken about these things than I am!
I agree with Black Knight that it is disgraceful that this type of inappropriate behavior is perceived as normal by woman. I grew up expecting it and thinking nothing of it as well. However it becomes a big deal in a competitive market, especially one that is as unfriendly to women as science. Not being taken seriously, being flirted with, patted, stroked, hugged, and not listened to (or shut down) in meetings because you are female takes a huge toll on your ability to believe in yourself, for others to believe in you, and for you to advance in your career. Kudos for Advisor for recognizing it — many don’t, my mentor certainly never did. However it would be nice if he took the next step and got word back to the visitor in question about his inappropriate behavior.
However, I’m beginning to think that in this particular setting it’s a tad inappropriate.
It’s more than a tad inappropriate; it is grossly inappropriate.
Plus, I think this behavior may breed the ignoring, etc. that you’re seeing.
BINGO! Public displays of treating women like the property of men reinforces the idea that they are just the property of men, and not purposeful agents of their own.
BINGO! Public displays of treating women like the property of men reinforces the idea that they are just the property of men, and not purposeful agents of their own.
*nods*.
Question is, PP, what can we do about it. It starts within our own circles, calling it when we see it, yes, but beyond that?
I guess it’s going to take time. Our generation won’t stamp it out, but that’s no reason not to start.
I literally jump if someone attempts to touch me, which usually makes it clear to them that they can’t do it. Also, having not grown up in the South but being here now, I hate being called “honey” while the local women find it perfectly normal?!?
Good for your advisor. Back in my part of the South… mostly people who don’t know you don’t hug you. Neighbor: Ok. Person at grocery: No way.
The paternalism is one of the things I dislike about the South, much as I love it otherwise. It’s nice to have someone offer to carry one’s luggage, but it’s not nice for them to always assume one *cannot* carry one’s own luggage.
Brigindo: I’m happy that Advisor mentioned it. Otherwise it would have never occurred to me. I don’t think he’s going to talk to the Visitor about it, though. The guy is kind of a BigShot.
PhysioProf: So, that may have been a tad bit of an understatement. But, yes, I’m seeing the bigger picture now.
Black Knight: Obviously, I don’t know the answer. I’m hoping that other people will realize that it’s not ok as well.
Science Girl: If only I had that reaction. I think being called ‘honey’ is considered normal because that’s the way it was growing up. It’s sort of a cultural thing (not that it’s a great thing, though).
JFS: It’s sort of that way where I grew up. However, the widowed old men didn’t really follow such social mores. As for the speaker? Maybe he figured that after meeting with us during the day and having dinner that night we had achieved that level in our relationship? That’s part of the reason why I found it amusing.
Just reading this post made my skin crawl! It’s not always easy figuring out what to do about inappropriate behavior that isn’t blatant harassment.
One of my university’s security guards calls me “honey” and likes to pat me on the arm or back. It is absolutely inappropriate, but it just doesn’t seem worth causing a scene or filing an official complaint, which is what it would take to make him stop. So instead, I avoid him like a coward….
Question is, PP, what can we do about it. It starts within our own circles, calling it when we see it, yes, but beyond that?
A great woman (okay, it was zuska) once (or three times) mentioned the concept of “policing masculinity” to refer to the process of jumping all over / challenging men who stray too far outside the boundaries of , well, what might be viewed as frat-house or locker room behavior.
I like to think of the process of men calling out the knuckleheads who get “handsy” as doing a little policing of humanity. A little goes a long way.