I had some more thoughts on the “too nice/too polite” problem. I think the other side of my problem is that I’ve been practicing on other grad students.
The reason why I decided to start with Journal Clubs was because the speakers aren’t as intimidating as those at other departmental (meta-departmental) seminars. Additionally, we’re encouraged to critically read all the General and Specialty Journal Club papers and the speaker is there not only to present the paper, but also to give out extra information (hence, all the extra research that goes into presenting one of these things). However, what didn’t occur to me was that I’d be “breaking the code.”
Students don’t tend to ask questions at these Journal Clubs. In fact, I think that the prevailing sentiment is that we’re supposed to go easy on the students, because if we were up there wouldn’t we want the same consideration? So, easy questions (eg. Can you define that negative control?) are ok, but the hard ones (eg. Those controls are very off. Can you still interpret the data?) are not. In other words, we, as grad students, should show some solidarity and help each other out in not looking stupid in front of the department. So, I feel like I’ve doubly hurt someone because not only did I ask a bothersome question, but it came from an unexpected source.
This thought came up because Advisor told me that he was glad that I asked that question. He told me that it needed to be asked and that he was pleased that I had gotten up the courage to ask it (he knows about my hesitancy to talk in public). I explained to him this feeling that perhaps that I should have waited for Dr. BigShot to ask. Advisor told me that was nonsense and that grad students should ask questions, Journal Club should lead to a lively debate, and it was a question for which the speaker should have been prepared. I acknowledged that in theory all of those things are probably true. He then said that perhaps I was taking this graduate student solidarity thing a bit too far. This led to a rather boring conversation (to anyone outside our department) about departmental culture and things that could make it better. In parting Advisor told me that it was good that I was coming out of my shell in the department and that other people could see his brilliance at picking me for a grad student.*
Advisor was being tongue-in-cheek there. We tend to joke a lot, so he wasn’t being insulting to me.
I think solidarity and support among grad students is a good thing but I guess I don’t see why that has to mean that you also can’t ask each other tough questions. It seems to me that it is a matter of how a question is asked. I’ve seen plenty of instances in academia where someone deliberately phrases or times a question to make the speaker look incompetent and the questioner looks brilliant. If this is what you were doing (which obviously I don’t think it was) I would agree that you broke an unspoken oath of solidarity. But science and academia should be about exploring meaning and truth together. If a question isn’t asked to belittle but to further the conversation I think it should be asked even if the speaker is another grad student.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Amanda, how did the other grad students react to you after you asked your questions?
I agree that academia is about exploring meaning and truth together, but I have found that individuals value solidarity at different degrees.
I happen to be working with a group that value solidarity so high that yes, they would rather sit through a boring journal club session than risk embrassing their fellow students by asking questions that are remotely interesting. Luckily, we still have a few brave souls from another group who do ask questions and have no intend to belittle anyone. But my group call them teacher’s pets (or worse), and their professors arrogrant when all these individuals want is to have a discussion, which I appreciate.
So. Did other students give you grief? If yes, how you deal with them?
This comment has been removed by the author.
I think your concern about graduate student solidarity is fair. I feel like in my department, your question would have been okay. You were asking the student about someone else’s work, which he can’t know everything about, and an “I Don’t Know” isn’t the end of the world. Though perhaps with your question it would have been a big deal, he could have always turned it around on the group to foster discussion. What I really think is breeching the graduate student code is asking them that kind of question about their own work in front of everyone else (a side conversation afterwards is considered more appropriate).
Of course, there is also some hesitancy to embarrass a student presenting JC, but I think you’d be given the benefit of the doubt (by everyone) if you actually seemed to be interested as opposed to liking to hear yourself talk (all the time).
I was recently challenged by a professor to flip my eyes around to see the true strengths in the presentation. It’s a different way of looking at it to see what people have done well.
Of course, you could have a situation where someone put together a completely unprofessional presentation. I saw one in graduate school where the presenter used a cartoon as the background.
I think being critical involves noticing both the positive and the negative.
Brigindo: I agree with you that academia should be about exploring “meaning and truth.” (I really like how you put that, btw).
doc-in-training: It was split about 50-50, even amongst people who are friends of mine. All thought that it was a reasonable question. However, about half thought that I shouldn’t have asked the question. I didn’t get too much grief. Mostly I got some grumbling about how I wouldn’t have appreciated such a question. I’m afraid that I didn’t handle that too well. Mostly I just shrugged, embarrassed.
Southern Grad Girl: My question was only so-so supported. I’m not sure how it would’ve been received if the student was presenting his/her own work. We don’t present our own work to the department very often. In fact we only do so twice in our career as graduate students (once at our qualifying exam and once at our defense).
Academic: I think that’s very useful advice to think about positive things to say. Maybe next time I could use some positive things about the student’s presentation to couch the criticism of the author’s data?
I’ve been in this situation sooo many times. Its the same in my department. And we do call the people who ask questions obnoxious and arrogant.
But I’m beginning to realize that is the nature of academia. And you’re probably helping those students because eventually they are going to get asked questions by people (and more difficult ones than you were asking!) about their own research! I think you can soften the blow by being indirect in your questioning, like saying “I wonder… blah blah blah.” (Having to do that irritates me to no end though.)
Wow. We as scientist must and should ask questions. It does take a graduate student (myself included) a while to realize these aren’t personal. I’ve never heard about not asking questions or some kind of pack between students to not ask each other questions. In my dept. we are required to give a dept. seminar once a year. It’s on fridays and two graduate students present about 20mins of their work each seminar. I’m upset when people don’t ask questions because I tend to think no one was paying attention or even cares about what I presented, or I presented it so badly it was impossible to ask a question about it.
In addition to journal clubs we have group meetings or intergroup informal seminars where we present our work, usually in practice for another talk or just because it’s your turn to present. These are great because you get feedback outside of your professor about your work.
Like southern gs said it shouldn’t be embarrassing if one doesn’t know an answer to a question, especially if it isn’t your work.
Good luck grappling with this issue but in my opinion be the b*tch that no one else has the guts to be (and I don’t think this is b*tchy behavior). It will make you and the speaker better scientist in the long run.
And we do call the people who ask questions obnoxious and arrogant.
This is completely insane. The entire essence of science–what defines it as a profession–is that scientists ask all questions that present themselves.
When you fail to ask a question, or raise a criticism, based on some misguided sense of “loyalty” or “solidarity”, you are actively harming the scientist you think you are protecting. Because someone somewhere will eventually ask the question–a paper reviewer, a grant reviewer, a thesis committee member, a job search committee member, a job seminar audience member–and the sooner the issue gets raised, the sooner the scientist can address it.
Life is very different in ecology, where grad students pursue complex projects independent of their advisor’s research program. At my grad school and at 2 other good schools I’ve seen, students presented their research proposal first to a room of (slightly drunken) grad students & faculty with a wider range of backgrounds than any one student or faculty member could have. Holes in the logic or design were pointed out (loudly) during the talk, but better there than by your committee. If the presenter couldn’t answer the question, he or she had 20 graduate students (and the 6 or so worthwhile faculty) all trying to come up with suggestions. The real status among grad students was for suggesting the solution or work-around or alternative. Asking questions in those presentations _was_ as act of solidarity. We all gave the talks (speaker provided the beer), we all asked the questions, we all aspired to reputations for being able to find solutions.
At a couple of weak schools, students were unfailingly nice, and often-failing after they spent 2 or 3 years in the field doing the wrong thing.
There’s no shame in being wrong, there’s only shame in remaining wrong.
When you fail to ask a question, or raise a criticism, based on some misguided sense of “loyalty” or “solidarity”, you are actively harming the scientist you think you are protecting.
And the science, and, perhaps, the truth, which is where our loyalties should be as scientists.
I got skewered a couple of times in graduate school. I didn’t like it, but I survived.
In industry, lives can depend on being careful and correct, and better a bruised ego than people hurt and millions lost. At the same time, it is the nature of our discipline that we are often wrong or confused, which is all the more reason to value the feedback that tough questions provide.
As others said- don’t be a jackass, but ask, ask, ask. Tough questions from someone with some insight are precious, and can save your butt sometimes.
走光,色遊戲,情色自拍,kk俱樂部,好玩遊戲,免費遊戲,貼圖區,好玩遊戲區,中部人聊天室,情色視訊聊天室,聊天室ut,成人遊戲,免費成人影片,成人光碟,情色遊戲,情色a片,情色網,性愛自拍,美女寫真,亂倫,戀愛ING,免費視訊聊天,視訊聊天,成人短片,美女交友,美女遊戲,18禁,三級片,自拍,後宮電影院,85cc,85cc免費影片,免費影片,線上遊戲,色情遊戲,日本a片,美女,avdvd,色情遊戲,情色貼圖,女優,偷拍,情色視訊,愛情小說,85cc成人片,成人貼圖站,成人論壇,080聊天室,080苗栗人聊天室,免費a片,視訊美女,視訊做愛,免費視訊,伊莉討論區,sogo論壇,台灣論壇,plus論壇,維克斯論壇,自拍